|
Post by Blaze The Movie Fan on Jun 10, 2015 15:03:46 GMT -8
I know I'm gone, but to be honest making levels was fun. But here's the problem. I'm not sure if returning is a good idea or not. There are issues that I need help fixing. - No matter what I did the level I made in the end was far too easy. It didn't matter if I tried putting puzzles, they still were easy.
- Apparently the only way to make a good Gruntz level is to fill literally every field. If I have to do that it feels more like homework assignment than something I do for fun, and I won't do that. If it's not fun it's not worth it.
- Everything has been done, this is minor as I never cared in the past if I did something someone else did. I'm talking about it anyway since it is a problem even though it's minor.
- I could never understand why being frustrated while looking for secrets is such a big deal. I would understand if it's something people need to go to, but it's not. It's entirely optional. And so far nobody has explained why this is such a big deal, then again I never asked so there is that.
- The fact that I can only have 15 enemies per team in the level is annoying.
So yeah, I am returning to level making if I can find a way around these issues or simply not care. But the reason I care is because I care about the quality of what I make.
|
|
BattlezM
Moderator
Is my hat too big?
Posts: 1,308
|
Post by BattlezM on Jun 10, 2015 16:01:47 GMT -8
Well, I can address this point by point: - Puzzle making often involves making the player stop performing actions, and take a look at what their goal is (pressing a switch, moving a grunt there, etc), then the way to accomplish this goal shouldn't be obvious (surround that switch in rocks, put an enemy sword grunt on the bridge). Now, when you start layering these ideas together, you start developing puzzles that are reasonably complex, and aren't just'easy'. As long as getting from A to B isn't just a simple trek or using a single tool, you've likely already got a good puzzle on your hands.
- Standard levels had an interesting style to them, I'd rate them as less dense as custom levels that are tightly fit together. Try looking back over them and styling your levels more like that (use alternate tiling, make some eyecandies, etc). It may feel homework, but personally, I really enjoy doing this kind of stuff, in addition to designing the puzzles. And you don't have to design huge 60x60 Cls, you can make something small that's around 30x30 so you have less space to work with, and thus 'fill'.
- Not everything has been done, but it takes a lot more effort to come up with new puzzles, even I'm barely getting ideas still after 5 years. But the concept of theme is still always there, better yet, sometimes loose levels work well with proper theme...but the aesthetic has to be there.
- It's a big deal because there ARE people that want to find that secret. You may not care about getting the perfect, but many others do. It doesn't take much to make secretz obvious, patterns around an area, arrows pointing, even just slightly obscuring a secret switch will suffice. When secrets are amazingly hard to find (like in a field of plain tiles), solvers will get frustrated about wasting time looking for it. They won't bother, and they'll probably be in a bitter state after finishing your level. Is that what you want?
- Smaller levels can help with that. Also this doesn't tend to be that huge a problem unless your entire level consists of fighting gruntz.
I hope that gives you some ideas on how to direct your thought train. At the very least, take my point on looking through the standard levels, it's amazing how much they accomplish with so little when I look back at them.
|
|
GooRoo
Administrator
Owner Administrator
I luv Gruntz!
Posts: 7,425
Display Name: GooRoo
|
Post by GooRoo on Jun 10, 2015 22:00:34 GMT -8
I would amend BattlezM's comment in one place ... the size of the map; minimum 32 tiles wide and minimum 24 tiles deep. 30X30 tile dimensions in a map causes Gruntz to default to 640X480 pixel screen resolution. Then we have to reload the registration value for screen resolution after playing the puzzle. When I receive a puzzle that will default my screen resolution, I create a version expanded to be the minimum dimensions before I even try to play it ... extra work, and extra time (of mine) to verify the puzzle for distribution.
The fastest way to get a Custom Level distributed is to provide a "View the map!" (JPEG or PNG format) showing how the puzzle is laid out before anything happens ... such as enemy Gruntz doing battle, a Rolling Rock altering the state of Pyramidz of Bridge Tiles, etc. Also, a Statz Page image showing a "PERFECT!" score (preferably provided by the puzzle's BETA tester (not the Designer) as proof of solvability). And an Announcement in the BETA Board created without using 'Preview' mode ... which messes up the table code, adding extra stuff that are default values (coded explicitly!) and removing the white space that makes it readable for the poor sap (usually me) who has to maintain it. Creating such an Announcement can be as simple as copying one of your own released CL Announcements that is in the same graphics set and Quest/Battle type, and replacing each instance of the puzzle name with your new puzzle's name. I do my modifications off-line using NotePad, and SAVE it into the folder I create for the puzzle, then Edit the Forum's copy.
|
|
Zu
Retired Staff
Posts: 752
|
Post by Zu on Jun 10, 2015 22:38:09 GMT -8
My personal suggestion on how to deal with leftover space: just fill it with secrets. Hide blue wormholes leading to those areas (if you already used up the secret switch and the red wormhole), and it will fix up any emptiness issues nicely.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2015 1:12:24 GMT -8
Make invisible roads for secretz.Like my level Casino Road.
|
|
powerfulmind
Designer
That Puddle... It tastes...like...ME!
Posts: 173
|
Post by powerfulmind on Jun 11, 2015 4:30:35 GMT -8
Yeah, Zu's idea is very good and simple. I can place here an example of my map (an image). As you can see on the lower left corner, there is some space - a rectangle, not too wide. It was a perfect place to add some Electrical Outletz here. Also, try to make a logical puzzle instead of a skill one, or combine them to make the CL more interesting.
|
|
|
Post by Blaze The Movie Fan on Jun 11, 2015 4:33:38 GMT -8
I'll try to be as civil and respectful as possible, if I sound rude that wasn't my intention, and it really hurts my feelings if I am indeed rude as I try to the best of my ability to be nice and respectful. - Puzzle making often involves making the player stop performing actions, and take a look at what their goal is (pressing a switch, moving a grunt there, etc), then the way to accomplish this goal shouldn't be obvious (surround that switch in rocks, put an enemy sword grunt on the bridge). Now, when you start layering these ideas together, you start developing puzzles that are reasonably complex, and aren't just'easy'. As long as getting from A to B isn't just a simple trek or using a single tool, you've likely already got a good puzzle on your hands.
- Standard levels had an interesting style to them, I'd rate them as less dense as custom levels that are tightly fit together. Try looking back over them and styling your levels more like that (use alternate tiling, make some eyecandies, etc). It may feel homework, but personally, I really enjoy doing this kind of stuff, in addition to designing the puzzles. And you don't have to design huge 60x60 Cls, you can make something small that's around 30x30 so you have less space to work with, and thus 'fill'.
- Not everything has been done, but it takes a lot more effort to come up with new puzzles, even I'm barely getting ideas still after 5 years. But the concept of theme is still always there, better yet, sometimes loose levels work well with proper theme...but the aesthetic has to be there.
- It's a big deal because there ARE people that want to find that secret. You may not care about getting the perfect, but many others do. It doesn't take much to make secretz obvious, patterns around an area, arrows pointing, even just slightly obscuring a secret switch will suffice. When secrets are amazingly hard to find (like in a field of plain tiles), solvers will get frustrated about wasting time looking for it. They won't bother, and they'll probably be in a bitter state after finishing your level. Is that what you want?
- Smaller levels can help with that. Also this doesn't tend to be that huge a problem unless your entire level consists of fighting gruntz.
Since I have limited time I'm only gonna answer with the numbers instead of having multiple quotes. 1. Good point I'll keep that in mind. 2. Yeah that works. 3. Even then my only goal is to make levels others enjoy playing, which I have accomplished more this decade than I have back during my kid and teenage years. Literally no one liked the levels I made back then. The only people who do like them are these who look at my older levels. 4. No I don't, which is why I will try to improve on that. 5. True. Sorry I didn't go into detail but I got too much personal stuff to take care of. Thanks for the help all of you.
|
|
|
Post by Blaze The Movie Fan on Jun 13, 2015 3:40:18 GMT -8
I'm still worried that people will hate the new level simply because not everything is filled up.
The only way I can make these levels without being bored out of my mind is when I add eye candy. I want to impress GooRoo, he is the king of level making after all, he even has a crown for it. (don't take this too literally I am being sarcastic.)
But no, he keeps bringing up how I use too many eye candies or how I don't fill literally everything in the level whit useful stuff. How the heck am I gonna impress him? I can't that's the problem.
If I can't impress the king it's not worth it.
|
|
GooRoo
Administrator
Owner Administrator
I luv Gruntz!
Posts: 7,425
Display Name: GooRoo
|
Post by GooRoo on Jun 13, 2015 6:39:00 GMT -8
I'm still worried that people will hate the new level simply because not everything is filled up. The only way I can make these levels without being bored out of my mind is when I add eye candy. I want to impress GooRoo, he is the king of level making after all, he even has a crown for it. (don't take this too literally I am being sarcastic.) But no, he keeps bringing up how I use too many eye candies or how I don't fill literally everything in the level whit useful stuff. How the heck am I gonna impress him? I can't that's the problem. If I can't impress the king it's not worth it. A large, empty, space is required for room to maneuver against enemy Grunt(z) throwing Boomarangs ... I have no quibble about that. But a large, empty, space in which a SecretTeleporterSwitch is anonymously placed is a no-no. And a large, unreachable, space filled with eye-candy is a total waste ... of the Designer's time, and the time of the person creating a "View the map!" for it. 'Islands' with lots of empty space between them is also bad ... since it is almost impossible to line up the pieces of the map without a square tile somewhere (Switch or Pyramid ... 32 pixels wide and tall) ... and when there is a background layer, the background just looks ... odd. Mini-puzzles that are more than 20 tiles wide or 18 tiles tall also make it difficult (for me, at 800X600 pixel screen resolution) to fit a true image of Toggling Bridges or Pyramids changing automatically into the VTM. To put it simply ... small is better ... for almost everything in Gruntz.
|
|
Zu
Retired Staff
Posts: 752
|
Post by Zu on Jun 13, 2015 10:42:52 GMT -8
Bottom line is, if you want to return to level-making and also want to avoid the pitfalls mentioned above, then it's best to start small with a level that is 32x32 tiles big (which is sufficiently big to prevent resolution problems), and then try to work around this small size. You should be able to reasonably fit everything within the given space with no leftover areas... and if you find yourself having already used up all of the available space while still having some stuff you want to do? Just expand to, say, 40x40 or so and lead the player to the new area with a blue wormhole. Everything can be worked around. Regarding EyeCandies, it's best not to overdo them. If you have an empty space big enough that you might think that it's best to fill it with EyeCandies, what you should do instead is, like I said, turning it into some simple secret area. Throw some coins in there and some hidden way to reach the place, and both you and the players will be happy. It ends up being much more interesting than a sizeable area filled to the brim with the same EyeCandy.
|
|
BattlezM
Moderator
Is my hat too big?
Posts: 1,308
|
Post by BattlezM on Jun 13, 2015 11:46:22 GMT -8
Typically my approach to eyecandy comes after designing the area a puzzle is in. Then I look through it and ask myself "where does the player not have to move to?" Anywhere the answer is yes and there's roughly 3x3 space of tilez that meet the criteria, that's where I start throwing down the eyecandy stump tiles (199 and 200).
From there, place eyecandies down and select a few different images to use for them. Eyecandies are at particularly at risk of being over used if it's just the same one over and over...but including even a bit of variance helps a lot.
Same idea goes for behind-eyecandies, except there is no walk criteria to be made I just expand the tile criteria to 5x5 and work from there.
|
|
|
Post by Blaze The Movie Fan on Jun 13, 2015 15:28:26 GMT -8
Yes, my retirement is sticking because there is obviously too much pressure I have to go through.
Unless I can find a way to make levels and have fun doing it, I won't return. But hey at least my old levels are still here.
|
|
|
Post by Blaze The Movie Fan on Jun 18, 2015 6:38:20 GMT -8
Wait, I have an idea, maybe instead of trying to impress others I try improving my style, and make my levels for the Gruntz players who enjoy playing my levels, that would solve everything.
Just don't expect me to be back until Christmas at least, as I got some personal stuff to deal with first.
|
|
|
Post by Blaze The Movie Fan on Jun 20, 2015 7:27:13 GMT -8
Also I'm changing my standards. Previously I only played levels for the let's plays, that's not the case anymore. I also wanna play the game unrecorded.
So my question is what levels from this year are best for inspirations for my own levels?
|
|
GooRoo
Administrator
Owner Administrator
I luv Gruntz!
Posts: 7,425
Display Name: GooRoo
|
Post by GooRoo on Jun 20, 2015 7:49:30 GMT -8
Also I'm changing my standards. Previously I only played levels for the let's plays, that's not the case anymore. I also wanna play the game unrecorded. So my question is what levels from this year are best for inspirations for my own levels? The best suggestion I can make is that you play the puzzles submitted by others, and decide for yourself what is good (to try to emulate) and what is not (to avoid emulating).
In my own opinion, the best recent Quest is "Delay Him...", because of its unique theme ... the closest thing to that (IMNSHO) is Guenter's "Conquest..." ... which is the opposite, in that the solver has to move as quickly as possible to beat Rolling Rockz, etc.
|
|
|
Post by Blaze The Movie Fan on Jun 25, 2015 14:07:50 GMT -8
I'm officially gonna come back now.
I will start production on my next level this weekend.
|
|
|
Post by Perfect Grunt on Jul 8, 2015 0:17:08 GMT -8
I'm officially gonna come back now. I will start production on my next level this weekend.
|
|
|
Post by Blaze The Movie Fan on Jul 8, 2015 5:56:37 GMT -8
I'm officially gonna come back now. I will start production on my next level this weekend. Yeah that didn't exactly happen since I need a lot of time to analyze the old Happy Birthday level to make it better.
|
|