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Post by SwordGrunt on Aug 17, 2015 14:36:55 GMT -8
A "maze" is certainly a concept we don't see often in Gruntz levelz given the perspective we view the game from, I'm looking forward to play this!
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Post by Wedrikul on Aug 18, 2015 6:47:11 GMT -8
SwordGrunt - Would you like to be Beta-tester? You can if you want.  |
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The Maze
Aug 18, 2015 11:04:13 GMT -8
via mobile
Post by SwordGrunt on Aug 18, 2015 11:04:13 GMT -8
Sure thing friend, send me the level and I'll get to play it as soon as possible!
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powerfulmind
Designer
That Puddle... It tastes...like...ME!
Posts: 173 
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Post by powerfulmind on Aug 26, 2015 1:21:55 GMT -8
GooRoo sent me the download, so I played your level. It looks that Designing would be your destiny.  Attachment DeletedHere are effectz of my game. The PERFECT!ly finished game. Wedrikul, maybe you won't be too angry for me, because I give you this Statz Page before SwordGrunt finished its Beta Testing workz... I became an "unwanted Beta Tester".  GooRoo, if you want this Statz Page, PM me, and I'll send you it.
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Post by Wedrikul on Aug 26, 2015 6:57:27 GMT -8
Well, ok, but SwordGrunt finished it few dayz ago, or maybe a week. He said that he sent it to GooRoo but now it looks like he hasn't done it.  But i'm glad that you like it!  |
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Post by SwordGrunt on Aug 26, 2015 7:58:32 GMT -8
I did, pretty sure I sent it to him the day after I tested it, a week ago, via a private message on the forum. Unless my PM settingz are messed up for whatever reason... but I see it in my outbox.  |
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Rik
Senior Gruntzer
Posts: 555
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Post by Rik on Aug 27, 2015 5:46:13 GMT -8
Thanks for this nice level |
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GooRoo
Administrator
Owner Administrator
I luv Gruntz!
Posts: 7,467
Display Name: GooRoo
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Post by GooRoo on Aug 27, 2015 7:26:36 GMT -8
I did, pretty sure I sent it to him the day after I tested it, a week ago, via a private message on the forum. Unless my PM settingz are messed up for whatever reason... but I see it in my outbox.  |
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Zu
Retired Staff
Posts: 752
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Post by Zu on Sept 6, 2015 4:09:49 GMT -8
At first, I really liked the level, but as I got further into it, the more frustrating it started getting with the abundance of ranged enemies everywhere. It's one thing when there are ranged enemies you can clearly see and which you can avoid with no loss of health, and there's enough safe spots to put your gruntz there and be able to think without any pressure. That would have been fair, if mildly annoying. But when you start throwing the player's gruntz into situations where they can't stop anywhere without being under danger, the player has to control more than one grunt at once to avoid losing their health, has to make long-term decisions under pressure, and when even checkpoints aren't safe to stand on, this goes from just annoying into really frustrating. The breaking point for me was when I reached the section with the stone gruntz and the welder grunt... after several tries, I finally managed to successfully keep my gruntz alive without taking a hit, only to look around and realize that I'll later need to bring my goober straw across spikez... and he doesn't even have enough health to survive.  |
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Post by Wedrikul on Sept 6, 2015 13:22:12 GMT -8
At first, I really liked the level, but as I got further into it, the more frustrating it started getting with the abundance of ranged enemies everywhere. It's one thing when there are ranged enemies you can clearly see and which you can avoid with no loss of health, and there's enough safe spots to put your gruntz there and be able to think without any pressure. That would have been fair, if mildly annoying. But when you start throwing the player's gruntz into situations where they can't stop anywhere without being under danger, the player has to control more than one grunt at once to avoid losing their health, has to make long-term decisions under pressure, and when even checkpoints aren't safe to stand on, this goes from just annoying into really frustrating. The breaking point for me was when I reached the section with the stone gruntz and the welder grunt... after several tries, I finally managed to successfully keep my gruntz alive without taking a hit, only to look around and realize that I'll later need to bring my goober straw across spikez... and he doesn't even have enough health to survive. Sorry for that Zu, but this is one of my earlier levelz. This no longer happens in later gamez.  I know this is brainstorming game but it can be also about grunt-management, fast clicking and so on , other? |
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Tomalla
Designer
General Modder
Posts: 525
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Post by Tomalla on Sept 28, 2015 12:27:25 GMT -8
I have no idea why this CL was marked with Hard difficulty. It's Medium, tops. The difficulty of the puzzles is not high enough for it to be marked Hard.
@Zu, there are always easy ways to avoid getting hit by the ranged enemies. The Gunhat Grunt at the beginning is only a mild inconvenience. Since he's shooting at you when you step on the Green Hold Switch, just drain his stamina first by stepping on it and quickly retreating. You'll have plenty of time to move the second Grunt past the pyramids then without being shot at. And the Rock & Welder duo is easy once they both attack only one of your Gruntz. The enemies shoot at the Gruntz being the closest. Use that to your advantage.
I feel like it's too easy for some people to blame the level for being too frustrating instead of simply trying to figure out the way to make things easier. And the Hard difficulty is just misleading and unfair.
I vote for the medium difficulty.
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The Maze
Sept 28, 2015 14:05:17 GMT -8
via mobile
Post by SwordGrunt on Sept 28, 2015 14:05:17 GMT -8
Well put, this level is very straightforward and I don't remember having problemz even with the ranged enemiez. Sure they're annoying but as you mentioned there are wayz to make it easier to play around that.
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Zu
Retired Staff
Posts: 752
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Post by Zu on Sept 29, 2015 2:55:58 GMT -8
I have no idea why this CL was marked with Hard difficulty. It's Medium, tops. The difficulty of the puzzles is not high enough for it to be marked Hard. Yes, "Medium" for those who are super attentive, are excellent at multitasking, can respond lightning fast to everything, never come across situations where an unexpected projectile comes from outside the screen, and have excellent anger/annoyance management... "Hard" for everyone else.  Keep in mind that, at the end of the day, GooRoo is the one who has the final say on a level's difficulty... and with his age, he definitely falls into the second category. Either way, even if one were to forgive the abundance of ranged enemies, I still think that not being safe even on checkpoints is just bad level design. |
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Tomalla
Designer
General Modder
Posts: 525
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Post by Tomalla on Sept 29, 2015 5:06:40 GMT -8
Yes, "Medium" for those who are super attentive, are excellent at multitasking, can respond lightning fast to everything, never come across situations where an unexpected projectile comes from outside the screen, and have excellent anger/annoyance management... "Hard" for everyone else. Was that elaborate and sarcastic comment really needed? I've already told you that not getting hit does not require any dexterity at all. No dexterity, no attentiveness and no multitasking whatsoever. Only thinking and a mere desire of completing the level. Just like in every other Gruntz level. You won't make me believe that placing two Gruntz in two particular spots on the map requires excellent and supernatural skills. Just admit that you're not able to complete the level because of something. Don't make a judgement on behalf of everyone else. Either way, even if one were to forgive the abundance of ranged enemies, I still think that not being safe even on checkpoints is just bad level design. Again - that's only your opinion. Checkpoints are just like any other tile in the game. And saying the level is badly designed is a heavy accusation. To me, level is badly designed when it's not possible to complete it with (or without) PERFECT score, thus making it unplayable. |
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Post by Wedrikul on Sept 29, 2015 11:30:47 GMT -8
Hey guys! Keep calm and keep calm. I prefered medium dificulty but it's up to GooRoo. He has the main vote (and only one, if needed). Bad-designed Zu? Well, the checkpoint should't be like this. Now I don't like these checkpoints, too, but there is only one. So it's not so bad, don't you think? |
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Zu
Retired Staff
Posts: 752
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Post by Zu on Sept 29, 2015 11:31:27 GMT -8
Again - that's only your opinion. Checkpoints are just like any other tile in the game. And saying the level is badly designed is a heavy accusation. To me, level is badly designed when it's not possible to complete it with (or without) PERFECT score, thus making it unplayable. It's not just my opinion. How would you feel if you reached the checkpoint, saved the game with the reasonable assumption that it's a safe spot for you, and then discovered that you entered this checkpoint and saved with an enemy immediately firing a one-hit-kill projectile at one of your gruntz, with next to no time to respond? That definitely veers straight into unforgiving and unfair territory, and the fact that "it can be done" is definitely not an excuse. Anyway, what I meant with my sarcastic comment was that, while you might more forgiving of levels that require quick response time and general patience, a lot of people out there might find this kind of thing rather troubling, and because of this, I think "Hard" rating is justified for this level. Let's not forget that at the end of the day, Gruntz is a puzzle game, not a test of one's reflexes and patience. And yes, I know that you're saying that it doesn't require THAT much reflexes... but that's like saying that if a bodybuilder can lift half a ton just fine, then a senile old grandpa can do that just fine too. People have different reaction times, is what I'm saying. (And no, I'm not angry... just doing my best trying to respond in a possibly peaceful manner. My intentions are good, even if my wording might be making it sound otherwise.) |
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GooRoo
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Post by GooRoo on Sept 29, 2015 11:45:15 GMT -8
I don't remember what Quest started it, but when I SAVEd at a CheckPoint and died immediately afterward due to a ranged missile coming my poor Gruntz' way, I stopped saving at any CheckPoint ... SAVEd either before or after reaching a truly 'safe' spot.
In other words, I agree that CheckPoints should always be 'safe' places without being under attack, or needing to quickly accomplish some task (which the delay in responding to the CheckPoint dialog, usually moving or intruding on the screen in which that task is presented is a problem all its own) ... or (heavens!) being left in the path of a moving hazard.
"I Want A Rock Right Now! V2" has a minor violation of my own no-no feelings ... an enemy Grunt is only three or four steps away from the CheckPoint. Since there are two solver's Gruntz pitted against that one enemy, and both have distractions, I doubt anyone will have much of a problem with that area.
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BattlezM
Moderator 
Is my hat too big?
Posts: 1,308
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Post by BattlezM on Sept 29, 2015 14:40:26 GMT -8
As a note on the 'dangerous checkpoint', one of the design philosophies in Gruntz is that you look ahead through the level. Typically it's to know what toolz you may need for later on areas. In this case it's discovering that a checkpoint switch is most certainly something that will be dangerous...of course you should avoid saving on top of it.
Now if it were the case that the enemy welder was completely covered up behind an eyecandy, that starts to enter the realm of 'unfair and bad' design.
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GooRoo
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Post by GooRoo on Sept 29, 2015 15:18:50 GMT -8
As a note on the 'dangerous checkpoint', one of the design philosophies in Gruntz is that you look ahead through the level. Typically it's to know what toolz you may need for later on areas. In this case it's discovering that a checkpoint switch is most certainly something that will be dangerous...of course you should avoid saving on top of it. Now if it were the case that the enemy welder was completely covered up behind an eyecandy, that starts to enter the realm of 'unfair and bad' design. |
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View the map!
I know this is brainstorming game but it can be also about grunt-management, fast clicking and so on , other? 
Keep in mind that, at the end of the day, GooRoo is the one who has the final say on a level's difficulty... and with his age, he definitely falls into the second category. 