Gruntz speedrunning - brainstorming

[Tomalla]

I've recently picked up an interesting idea of adding support for speedrunning Gruntz and I'd love to see the community get involved as much as possible in this project. Who knows, maybe the game will get more attention this way? My general/initial idea is:

• add Gruntz to the speedrun.com database
• come up with categories and rules
• determine how the time should be measured for these categories
• upload some initial speedruns with accordance to these categories and rules
• moderate leaderboards at speedrun.com

I'm fairly new to speedrunning in general so I'm just learning how other speedrunning communites go about solving some of the problems and challenges. Therefore if anyone participates in other speedrunning communites, their knowledge is much appreciated here!

In the meantime below are my suggestions:

Categories

I see the following possibilities for categories:

• every individual level (32 levels + 4 training levels + 1 secret level)
  
• speedrunning individual worlds (is it really worth it?)
• full-game playthrough at one sitting (should it start with the first training level or the first Rocky Roadz level? It also would have to not include the secret level for obvious reasons)

All of the above would come in two flavors: Any% (i.e. no PERFECT score) and 100% (i.e. with PERFECT score).
And yes - a full-game playthrough looks like it's doable - a PERFECT run can be done definitely under 11 hours (I've summed up times from the stats pages for standard levels at the forum).

I believe that anything glitchy shouldn't be allowed in the run. So no super springs for example (i.e. jumping three or more hole tiles in a row due to the routing error) for example. However there might be some non-standard game mechanics which might be allowed. I'll get into that once I come up with some good examples.

Also I think that saving and loading game state should be allowed as long as it all happens within the same level and no save slots from different levels/runs are used. It's way to easy to get squashed by anything to prohibit that.

We would also have to specify which Gruntz versions are we supposed to allow (do I remember correctly that the unpatched version doesn't allow PERFECT score for some levels?)

Timing

For individual levels I suggest the following:

• at the beginning of each level there's no player Gruntz, the level goes about its own business and the big message "Click a mouse button or press any key to continue..." flashes on the screen. The timer would start the moment the player closes that message and Gruntz of the player start teleporting in.
• the timer would end once the Warpstone Grunt enters the King's fortress and the victory chants ensue.

I've created a script for the AutoSplitter that detects the above starting and ending conditions and so the player will not have to bother operating the timer manually - it'll be all fully automated.

For full-game playthrough the general idea would be the same. However there's a question what to do with intervals between entering a fortress and starting the next level. Should these count towards the speedrunning time or not? Or perhaps they matter so little to the overall playthrough time and/or PC performance (i.e. slower and faster level loading times) that it should be ignored by us? I put that to debate.

Also there's yet another aspect when it comes to time in general. The game itself has a built-in timer which is visible on a stats page upon completing a level. It can surely make for some interesting challenges however I know too little about how the in-game timer actually measures time (for example does it pause with the game? What about alt-tabbing? Loading/saving save slots? etc.). I'm also afraid such timer would turn out to be too unreliable to be used in speedruns. But it's something worth thinking about in the future perhaps.

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So what do you guys think? Cheers

[powerfulmind]

I'm quite excited to join my mind into the brainstorm, especially that there's a chance to "make Gruntz known again".  

If the project goes well, speedrunners will want to search this forum for details they need. I think we should prepare some threads serving these information. What I mean is, for example, a list of known glitches (I haven't even heard of that spring routing error you mentioned) and exploits/special behaviors (crossing diagonally a pair of pyramidz). Unless there are such lists already... Then you may as well link them in the game description/rules at speedrun.com.

While our forum would store information, Gruntz Discord would be a place for contacts and such thingz (well, it already is!). Probably will need some channels to manage speedrunning community better, but again... if the project goes well.

As for the version of Gruntz, I know only two of them: 1.0 and 1.01 (a patch). The patched version fixes some obvious errors in Standard Levelz (you were right there), so I'd demand using it in speedruns without a second thought. I just don't remember if they're different about Secret Level access.

Full playthroughs of games sometimes divide their timings into two categories: real time and time without loads. How about giving it a try?

About the game timer... Well, the only way I see is testing out all the possibilities in a small, testing level (like, a 30x30 square with a Warpstone Grunt and a fort a few steps away). One could record a video and try to measure amounts of seconds/frames (in a program capable of it) instead of repeatedly mashing stopwatch buttons every so often. I think it should be prioritized, because it's a question I'd quickly ask if I were a speedrunner trying to get familiar with Gruntz.

Well, that'll be it. I like technical aspects of games, but I'm poorly skilled and equipped for doing speedruns. My best experience comes from merely watching them, so don't take my words as an expertise just because I have a lot to say. 

Let's make it quick! 

[Tomalla]

Oct 18, 2021 21:17:38 GMT -8 powerfulmind said:

If the project goes well, speedrunners will want to search this forum for details they need. I think we should prepare some threads serving these information. What I mean is, for example, a list of known glitches (I haven't even heard of that spring routing error you mentioned) and exploits/special behaviors (crossing diagonally a pair of pyramidz). Unless there are such lists already... Then you may as well link them in the game description/rules at speedrun.com.

Of course! Allegedly Claw community got a nice influx of newcomers when they requested Claw at speedrun.com. I hope for the same here!

At some point we could start a board here on the forums dedicated to speedrunning. For now I'm still researching the subject - polishing my toolbox (OBS profile, LiveSplit layouts, AutoSplitter script ...) and writing down all of my observations like tips and tricks. For now I'm storing it all on my blog here temporarily: datashenanigans.pl/gruntz-speedrunning-tips-tricks/ but once we finishing everything we would ideally move all this info here on the forum.

A list of banned glitches should also be incorporated somewhere. I'll update that blog page with that list as well.
By the way if you want to know more about super springs glitch, here's more info: gooroosgruntz.proboards.com/thread/923/super-springz 

Oct 18, 2021 21:17:38 GMT -8 powerfulmind said:

Full playthroughs of games sometimes divide their timings into two categories: real time and time without loads. How about giving it a try?

Could you provide some examples of such games for reference? I want to see how they organized such classifications. Bonus points if they have an autosplitter!

Oct 18, 2021 21:17:38 GMT -8 powerfulmind said:

About the game timer... Well, the only way I see is testing out all the possibilities in a small, testing level (like, a 30x30 square with a Warpstone Grunt and a fort a few steps away). One could record a video and try to measure amounts of seconds/frames (in a program capable of it) instead of repeatedly mashing stopwatch buttons every so often. I think it should be prioritized, because it's a question I'd quickly ask if I were a speedrunner trying to get familiar with Gruntz.

From my brief tests of the in-game timer from a minute ago:

• the time when paused, when loading, when the "Click a mouse button or press any key to continue..." message is flashing, when the warpstone is already at the fortress (and chanting animations start to roll) and when the "NEXT LEVEL" button is visible on the screen does not count towards the stats page time
• reloading the game resets the timer to the state from when it was saved

And that would be all fine. However I've heard reports that the game timer can act funky sometimes. I can't imagine how testing these edge cases would look like on a test map and a stopwatch in your hand. My approach would be getting the in-game timer via Cheat Engine, showing it up on the screen and THEN fiddling around with stuff. I'm after some attempts to find that timer in the memory but so far to no avail. However I believe it's just a matter of ... time. <puts on sunglasses, screaming in the background ensues>.

Once we get that it'll be way easier to either incorporate the timer in our runs or rule it out completely.

[powerfulmind]

Oct 19, 2021 7:33:28 GMT -8 Tomalla said:

Could you provide some examples of such games for reference? I want to see how they organized such classifications. Bonus points if they have an autosplitter!

There's only one I know: www.speedrun.com/skyrim/.

When viewing Main Quest Category Rules, you may read "Time without loads has to be shown with load remover on LiveSplit.". Using the LiveSplit tool seems to be a good idea, then.

Unfortunately, any Autosplitter solution cannot be applied to this game, as said in this thread of speedrun.com Skyrim forum. So, I won't be hunting any bonus points. 

[Tomalla]

OK so I've revised my ASL (auto splitter) script and it now allows for: automatic starting, splitting, resetting, extracting in-game time and detecting saving/loading sequences (to subtract from the real time and to get so called "loadless" time). It's available here: github.com/tomalla5120x/gruntz-autosplitter

Before we start recording the speedruns however, we need to set up some ground rules. Here are my propositions:

• for now only single level runs are allowed (the loadless timer in my script doesn't support runs spanning multiple levels yet)
• no video splicing (what if the game crashes? Should people be allowed to resume from the most recent saved game state? What about the real/loadless time then? How often are these crashes anyways?)
• in case of a 100% (PERFECT) run you have to include the stats page at the end of the video to verify that the PERFECT score has been in fact achieved
• using the auto splitter is not required but highly recommended, as it also allows to not only start and split automatically but also to track the in-game time and loadless time. If you don't use the auto splitter, the speedrun real time is calculated as a difference in time between the following frames in the video: the first frame where the exclamation bubble pops up signifying the presence of player's Gruntz teleporting in (or the first frame where the white circle under player's cursor appears), and the first frame after bringing the warpstone to the King where the ending level animations start (Gruntz flexing and exiting).
• if you don't use the auto splitter to show the exact in-game time but use the in-game time from the stats page screen instead, the in-game time recorded will have all "9"s filled in after the period. That's because of the way the stats page works - if it shows the time "0:35" it may be any time from 0:35.000 to 0:35.999. Treating it as 0:35.000 is unfair to the runs which have the exact in-game supplied. That's why we assume the worst time possible.
• if the actual speedrun is not at the beginning of the video give us the approximate time mark where it starts.
• the video must include a loading screen for the level that would signify what level it is and that it's not a cheeky custom level. It may be either the initial loading screen at the start of the level or the loading screen when you quickload during the level.
• easy mode is forbidden
• recording game audio is mandatory. It allows for (easier) verification whether the video has been sped up and/or spliced.
• runs may try to minimize the in-game time alone and thus pause the game extensively. Upon submission just tell us explicitly that it's this kind of a run as it will be marked appropriately. In any other circumstances pausing the game is prohibited.

Other organizational notes:

• I don't think the secret level should be allowed to speedrun. It's mostly just the "typing game" requiring the player to input cheat codes as quickly as possible. I don't feel like it's the speed running material. (Edit:) Never mind, didn't really realize you may not use cheat codes to complete the secret level.
• training levels can be speedrun but only in the 100% Any% category and not the Any% 100% category. The reason is simple: the training levels 1, 3 and 4 are impossible to complete without 100% and the training level 2 can be completed without 100% but it doesn't gain any benefit to the player whatsoever (skipping the second shovel requires choosing a different route of the same length).

[swietymiki]

I have some doubts about certain rules you suggested:

Nov 13, 2021 0:27:24 GMT -8 Tomalla said:

runs may try to minimize the in-game time alone and thus pause the game extensively. Upon submission just tell us explicitly that it's this kind of a run as it will be marked appropriately. In any other circumstances pausing the game is prohibited.

I think this is too extreme. If I need to pause the game, I'll lose on the real and loadless times anyway... Why remove the possibility?

I don't think the secret level should be allowed to speedrun. It's mostly just the "typing game" requiring the player to input cheat codes as quickly as possible. I don't feel like it's the speed running material.

The secret level does not require cheats to be beaten, just entered. I guess it could be allowed as long as there's no cheats used inside the secret level.

training levels can be speedrun but only in the 100% category and not the Any% category. The reason is simple: the training levels 1, 3 and 4 are impossible to complete without 100% and the training level 2 can be completed without 100% but it doesn't gain any benefit to the player whatsoever (skipping the second shovel requires choosing a different route of the same length).

I think it should be the opposite. Only the Any% category should be allowed, because there are no WARP letters in the training levels and getting the Perfect score is not possible.

[Tomalla]

Yeah you're completely right about all three suggestions. I've corrected the original post. Thanks for the feedback.


































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